SgWutan.com

Bro's lets move on and talk about the xing yi/xin yi, shall we.

I knew he was either referring to you or JB, but didnt know that you mentioned you know nuts about "Force", haha .

Anyway, there is nothing to be laughed at since we are all here to share and learn.



Yes, sir.

How do you feel grounded when you are in SanTi?
Do we do it in a 50/50 or a 40/60?

_________________
Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

In my opinion, the weight distribution should be 70/30, it should never be 50/50 as you cannot move without shifting weight.

There is a very important secret to shifting the weight forward, without knowing the exact principle, you cannot have explosive, cun jin (inch stepping).

The way I was told the stance reflects a sprinter, crouched and ready to violently explode off the rear leg. The crouching (shu-contraction), has within it a spring like quality, this quality will not be there, unless you have got a good foundation in, san ti shi.

The postures intention feels like a crouching cat, waiting to pounce on something. The intention is very cool, waiting, but at the same time very aggressive, though not angry.

When you step, the front foot forward, you must use tsai jin (treading force), in the chuan pu, they say it is like "stepping on poisonous snake". It's main thing is to tread the weight down naturally into the ground on a 45 degree downward arc. In application, you can trap someone's foot preventing their escape as you strike them.

A lot of people do not know this as you can tell when they drop their foot violently on the ground.

Stamping to me is one of the major problems in Xing Yi/Xin Yi, as there is no, tsai jin. One of the reasons is people are not squatting properly (low enough) when you step the foot out, it lands heel first and then rolls down until the force/gripping is felt in the big toe. The heel should be placed, it should not drop. If you practice dropping the weight onto the foot you will develop a problem in the heel of the foot and can jar other parts of the body.

Another reoccurring problem is the stamping of the rear foot, I shall add , that there is no stamping in orthodox xing yi at all. The rear foot actually skims the surface of the ground, like a light bump.


The reason for this is the way the stance naturally adjusts through the forward momentum. If the back foot did not skim the ground, your stance would lose all the alignments and probably end up having a long base.

You should also not slide/drag the rear foot, sometimes people slide the rear foot too much, so the stance is short.

The length of the stance is determined by your ability to squat, I will list some of the procedures as the way I was taught them. I am open to criticism and comments on why I do it this way. Please note, I don't practice Xing Yi any more, I practice Xin Yi.

1) Both feet together, hands naturally at sides (Wuji Zhuang), no intention, left foot pointing straight ahead, right foot should be turned exactly 45 degrees (so the body is in one plane)

2) Squat as low as possible, maintaining (Weilu), tighten the grain path, tuck in the tailbone to the maximum and fill the pelvic basin. Hollow the chest to the maximum, relax the abdomen (Dantian). The eyes should start to show some intention (Dwu) venomous gaze. The way the eyes are achieved is the tuck the chin slightly and direct the gave out from underneath the eyebrows.

3) Empty the front foot (rear leg taking all the weight), stretch out the front foot to the maximum (shin being inclined somewhat, the knee is locked) and touch the heel onto the floor. The buttocks at this point and time are aligned with the rear heel.

4) Roll the weight forward from the heel to the ball of the foot (tsai jin), grip the floor with the front toes, at the same time push the weight forward, driving the hips forward and pushing the weight (30%) into the front foot (you will now be in 30/70%) The buttocks will be now in line with the rear peak of the calf muscle. When you do this properly, you will feel the rear knee muscle (quadriceps), lock/tense intensely.

5) Your right hand grabs the left elbow and pulls it in, so the left elbow is tight against your solar plexus, at the same time the right elbow is hugging the right side of the ribs. Your left hand's palm is facing the right side of your jaw.

6) Now rotate the left palm, so it is facing away from you and push the left palm forwards, dragging the right elbow, rubbing against the ribs (mor jin). The left index finger, the nose and the front big toe, should all be on one line. Take note; the front toe should be toed in around 15 degrees, so to provide protection to the groin, definitely not too much as it will hinder the forward projection of the body as you will need to turn it slightly to move. The height of the front palm is about chest height.

7) Separate the hands the right palm drops to it is one fist in length under the lead elbow, the right tiger mouth in line with the left elbow.

Extra notes (San He') Shoulders matching hips, elbows matching knees, hands matching feet.

The lead arm should be straight but with a natural curve, the leading shoulder should still be contracted slightly, do not overextend.

Elbow tips should face down, elbows floating make you structurally inefficient, plus remove protection to the ribs. To do this twist the hands to the maximum, the elbows should point down when you are doing this properly.

The hand is like a animals paw, not a claw, do not hook the fingers and do not leave a big gap in the tigers mouth, the fingers are slightly curved.

The wrists are not too tensed, they should also have a natural curve, though project the force to (laogong shu), the palms have to be hollow.

I severely edited this post, hope you got something out of it.

Jay_Bee

You got my point..so why is everyone so bothered about the lineage/authenticity issue of XingYi quan? Practicing the basic principle of XingYi Quan is the most important of all cos all types of XingYi Quan has to go through this basic stage. Different places such as Hebei or Henan or whatever do emphasize on their own focus point cos they feel that it is important to themselves in the combat purpose, but that doesn't mean you yourself need to follow strictly just the Henan or Hebei style, you can chose to emphasise on others...it is just on how you interpret and whether what you concentrated on is really effective or not.

Lung_Xin_Guo_Ren2 has never read my posting on the previous XingYi Quan topic properly and he claimed that his training in XingYi Quan is the orthodox type and mine is unorthodox. Let me remind you that this is just on how I view it, that doesn't mean yours/mine XingYi Quan is orthodox/unorthodox.


Are you saying that I am at Ah Gao's mercy and I should be grateful for that? Let me tell you, I dun give a damn and he can just barred me from the site anytime. I'm fine with it.

You said that you find my postings not informative to you...It is not meant for you in the first place, so why should you give a damn to it?

You wanna talk abt proper training/lineage in order to ensure that you have learnt the right thing? In the 1st place, you are not born with skills of learned XingYi Quan and if you have never learn XingYi Quan b4, how do you know what you are learning is proper or not?......You guys have already said, Hebei and Henan is different. Since it is so different and each has their focus own point in combat purpose, so how can a beginner in XingYi Quan like vivasg distinguish which is rite or wrong?

Vivasg....I am currently still practising on the "an jing" for the past few years but I have not reached this level cos it is really difficult to master, my instructor has shown and applied "an jing" on me before...it is really unbelievable. However, just concentrate on your "san ti" 1st. Even till now, I still practise my "san ti" but what I feel is that on each side (R/L side) that you are practising, do not stand more than 32 breathings each time. You can practise many times but each time not more than 32 breathings cos it will very stressing on your knees can you'll hurt your knees somedays before you managed to obtain the basic of XingYi Quan and 1 last thing that I would like tell you, DO NOT PURPOSELY STUMPED YOUR FEETS WHEN PRACTICING XINGYI....you are only courting your own death if you do so.

What Lung_Xin_Guo_Hen2 said are the basic of XingYi Quan and it is definitely correct, nothing wrong with it....but you can find that in any books on XingYi Quan.

XiangQi, I have to make some things very clear to you my friend.

When you are talking about the difference about Hebei and Henan, you should know you are talking about completely different arts, Henan is Xin Yi Liu He Chuan and follows much different principles. If you want to get into the Xing Yi Chuan/Xin Yi, than create another thread, this is getting off topic.

The thing is you say, I am not concerned about with orthodox Xing Yi Chuan or interested in lineage, I am only concerned with who can win the testing of ones will. This post is about Xing Yi Chuan, nothing else. Being a good fighter has nothing to do with Xing Yi, plain and simple, though if you are proficient in the art, you should naturally be able to hold your own.

As for what I posted, yes some of it can be found in books as all I did was give a outline of some of the basic principles as that is what this thread is about. I would also like to say that some of the stuff I wrote is not in any book as the sequence I showed, is exactly the way my teacher told me and also some of my own thoughts, so don't think I copied any of it, it is all from the top of my head.

As for me not reading your posts, I did, I just did not agree with them, that is all. I never claimed or mentioned anything about my lineage as that has nothing to do with the price of fish (Ni Dong Ma?). I don't know your lineage, nor am I really interested either, I train what I train for a number of certain reasons and am not concerned what other people do, if I did I would have a headache 24/7.

The thing is this is a PUBLIC forum, anyone is entitled to their opinion, don't get angry when everyone does not see the same way as you. We are all different and unique.

As for you claiming you have reached the an jin level?, well maybe I can experience some of that when I come to Singapore soon.

Best wishes.

Jay_Bee (aka LXGH2).

Funny....didn't you know that Henan has XingYi Quan also?...Anyway, whether you are coming to S'pore or not has nothing to with me. Happy selling your Laksa...This is all I wanted to say.

Tq jkklim, Lung_Xin_Guo_hen2 and Xiangqi.
All shared experienced appreciated. Very well explained.

By the way, Xiangqi one question to u.
As you share that
do not stand more than 32 breathings each time for san ti shi (R/L)
I thought by san ti shi we can 凝神劲整、壮内增力、稳固下盘 but if just 32 breathing then change stance I humbly wonder is it too short to built up the strength. mind explained ur point?

Personally is really tiring and painful to stay in san ti shi for long time. But i can felt the strength is growing and make us better trained and understand xinyi quan.

Will science help? Try doing more leg exercise to strengthen the thigh and calve muscles. Concentrate on the tiny fibers that lead to the knee ligament tissues...

Did I get my subject correct? Any P.E. instructor to further the points?

_________________
Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

Hi Ah gao,

I think by doing more stretching or leg exercise is only help to avoid sprain or hurting the muscle.

I think previously i read an article b4 on muscle building. It mentioned something that there are 2 type of muscles from the way we building up.
(Not very good at explaining, hope u all don't mind)
But generally is like this
One is building muscle by carrying over excessive heavy weight for a short time.
Another is carrying a heavy weight which is within the person strength but doing multiple repetitions
Both can build up the muscle but is 2 different characteristic of muscle one is powerful and big muscle but the endurance is short.
the second one is as powerful but muscle not tat big, but very strong endurance.

hope i able to share what i'm trying to mean

Xiangqi,
Really appreciated your contribution. But not trying to complain, just try to say that is good for sharing different points but try to share in more gentle way, don't be too harsh.

we can built a more comfortable environment instead of hostile it. doesnt it hope we all can be friends. 四海之内皆兄弟:)

Ah Gao has explained it...

From my personal experience..I have tried to do more that 32 breathings before but many times at about 36th breath, I realised that the ligaments of my knees (especially the leg with 70% weight) tends to be very pain...something like overload. I do not believe in it initially when I first started to learn XYQ till I came acrossed a book abt the basic of XingYi Quan that talks about this (I do not know about others but it is convincing to me). Like I said, you may train many times but not overtrain on each time. Strength can be build up in this way also. You can keep on changing your legs left and right continuously after each time and again. The objective is to build up your basic/strength progressively and healthily, not just for able to stand long within a short period. Anyway, you are not training it for the sake of fighting....so wats the hurry? This brings up another point...theres no shortcut for internal boxing (regardless of taiji, xingyi or bagua) and one should never be too hurry in it. So...training is indeed important but do not overtrain. You wouldn't want to hurt yourself, do you?

vivasg....I get what you mean but do I sound harsh when I am answering you? Tell that to LXGH2....

Hi vivasg

Usually if u feel tired during santi, take a rest and swing your hands/legs (not wushu swing, i mean relaxation swings so blood flows, etc).

Sometimes when u relax more, and re-train, u may get or feel new perspective and improve little by little. Don't get too work up by trying to PERFECT each left and right side. For me, i can feel i m doing the right thing by my right hand side, left side not so good, but i don't get too work up for it to perfect it to show my instructor.

Tell u something honestly, i manage to get the right technique when i try out in toilets breaks Then i will call my instructor and says "hey i got it" and i shows him next lessons (with my pants on of course)

i once read that wang shujin the famed xingyi boxer said something that in xingyi training one only needs to train the form to develop power. this seems to run contrary to what vivasg is saying in regards to training the muscles. any truth to what wang shujin said?

also xiangqi mentioned knee pain - is this common in xingyi training? internal martial arts stress the need to be relaxed. is this true for xingyi? if true how does this square with what xiangqi has mentioned?

_________________
Contact : zenmindsword@ymail.com
Facebook : www.facebook.com/zenmindsword
Website : http://www.wix.com/zenmindsword/zenmindsword
Blog : zenmindsword.posterous.com

HuH? What had I explained?!?!


You are able to lift your arm, swing it around, all becos you arm muscles are able to support it.

Our legs - it should have almost similar degree of motions as compare to the arms becos both are pivoting. The functions that we use on the legs are mainly - standing, walking and some form of running (we had been doing this all our life). So it is the muscles that helps to do those things.

BUT... we did not stand in SanTi; we don't walk like "chicken step"; we ain't leaping like "Cat Up The Tree". Our leg muscles are not train in that sense of manner.

We have 3 muscles groups:
1.) Skeletal muscle is anchored by tendons to bone and is used to affect skeletal movement such as locomotion and in maintaining posture.
2.) Smooth muscle is found within the walls of organs and structures.
3.) Cardiac muscle is a specialized kind of muscle found only within the heart.


SanTi is a posture, so the muscles group will be Skeletal Muscle. In fact, regardless whether you are in stationary or motion, you use Skeletal Muscle.

Build up this group of muscles and you have better positioning control of your SanTi posture.

My $1 comment...

_________________
Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

In reply to mushin...

If I am not wrong, I think what Wang Shujin is trying to emphasize is the learning of XingYi starts from external form for a beginner. The purpose is to ensure the correct movements of the beginner, the precise path movements of the fists and as some of the movements are quite difficult to exert force/power during movements (eg. 鑽拳), it is important to get the external form accurate 1st which will led to the precise and accurate intention of movements. As time goes by with continuous non-stop practising everyday, the power/force will naturally develops and comes along.

The name of XingYi Quan has already told you...."形意" Why the "形" is being placed before "意"?once you get the 形 correct and keep on practising, the 意 will gradually comes in after a period of time (maybe 2 yrs, 3yrs, 5yrs...or more, that depends). If you practise 意 before 形....your practise will become 意形(異形) which means Freak

As for the knee pain...I dunno abt others but one of my knees already has a problem as I have torn my ligaments before but when I changed to my other leg for the "san ti" practise, the same issue returns and I still remember that I have come across in one of the books that talks abt the basic of XYQ mentioning about this problem due to overtrain....so depends on how each individual feels about this.

When I 1st started XYQ, my instructor (Yes...its LKK) initially told me to stand on "san ti" with 16 breathings the most (for initial stage) and change continuously but I would like try it out on more and I wanted to push it to 50 breathings but my knees started to get pain at abt the 36th breath which is why I advise vivasg to keep it at 32 breathings each time at most...but whether he buys my advise or not is up to him.

Ar~ Sodesu Ne! It is a personal experience and not a guideline...

So if vivasg can train till he does a 1 million breath counts also no problem larr~ Up to each individual's capability...


不晓得。。。
我练形意，先练《沉》、接练《步》后以《意》打出《形》
我练形意，不练“形态”的“意识”，而练“意识“创出”个人“形式”

人的肢体不一，不能定“形”。一旦定了“形”，《拳意》不到，拳死了！
有了“意”，不论任何《拳形》都定啦!


在加。。。
劈、崩、钻、炮、横为五拳。
需了解：（１）形似斧、箭、锥、炮、梁
在了解：（２）性属金、木、水、火、土

_________________
Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

I got your points, but you don’t get mine.


Firstly, the basic of different styles of xingyi is different, even the santi is different, therefore let's say you want to learn Song style Xingyi, you don’t go for any Xingyi teachers, you go for the Song style teacher. 2ndly, just because it is basic , doesn’t mean that you can learn and master them from anyone. And precisely because basic is so important, you need to have a good teacher to guide and teach you. If someone can be an expert in xingyi without a good lineage and a good teacher, so is what he is practising xingyi (as passed down by the ancestors, or at least something close to it) or his own interpretation of xingyi?



Precisely for beginners who cannot differentiate, they need to find a good teacher with good lineage, so that he or she can minimise the chances of learning from some unqualified teachers, or from someone who has learnt it through VCD or books.


Your posts are not meant for forum readers like me, then why do you put them up? In condemning the site, aren't you also insulting all the members? Put it in a harsh way, you don't have the basic manners.

You don't give a damn, and you think it is a waste of time, and yet you keep coming back. Weird.

Sorry Gao, I know it is a bit off-topic. This shall be my last post replying to XQ.

Orangecandle, please continue in this discussion in this topic, you are just as entitled as anyone else to give your opinion. I don't know why everyone is so tight about this topic?

I have radically different opinion from Xiangqi as we both have different experience, understandings of the art, but none are any less valid. Take what you want from this discussion that's useful and discard what you find useless, it's as simple as that.

I am a bit of a purist when it comes to the arts, I don't really agree with someone mixing 6 different branches of Xing Yi together, I am lucky enough to find the right teacher (for me), so I don't feel the need to go and look for other teachings, I can see that this would be the case, if I felt something was lacking, but my teachers curriculum is very well rounded.

As for the breathing thing, this to me is a individuals school's approach to training the stance. I personally have never trained in this manner, the way I was taught was to hold the posture to the maximum limit, excessive shaking, burning and then take a minutes rest and then change side, then repeat again. It's nothing complicated, I don't use visualizations of any kind, though I pay attention to the Chi move, but do not try any type of circulating exercises. I want my training as natural as possible.

I think my limit was around 40 minutes each side and that was holding all the requirements religiously, making sure I was very low. So for the man, who said his goal is 30 minutes, good luck!, but do not expect each time to increase your posture by 15 minutes, I don't think that is physically possible?

For Xiangqi's problem in the knee, it seems a latent injury, which has not healed, so the training he does works around that problem.

As for Xing being in front of the Yi, I have never heard that take on it, but I suppose it does make some sense. Usually I hear from Ming Jin, An Jin and finally Hua Jin as you should know. The art starts out more physical (Li) and ends up more dealing with (Chi, Shen, etc).

Xing Yi, means to me, your intention (emotional feeling) determines the shape of your body to react. The meaning of Xin Yi is completely different again, though I won't go into that any further.

JB.