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Thanks XiangQi!!! I think I raised this point about the Xing leading to Yi also in one of my blog posting.

To reiterate my question is :-

a) Is "sung" a required principle in xingyi?

b) If yes, how does it tie in to pain in the knee?


I understand if one of your knee has a problem but as you wrote the same problem crops up even for the good knee. I dunno about Xingyi which is why I asked. But in taiji if we have a knee problem it can be solved by applying the "sung" principle and the pain will go away. Otherwise its difficult to do a form with strong grounding at a slow speed for 2-3 hours non-stop.

I feel that a principle is a principle. Its not a matter of how each individual feels about it. In taiji we say "sung" should not give you pain. If it does, it means something is done wrongly. Period. Not a matter of the trainee thinks it acceptable or feel OK. Wrong is wrong. Its only by questioning and challenging the boundaries of our own art that we can make progress. Otherwise over time what indeed is wrong will be accepted as right. And that will be the biggest tragedy of all as far as that particular art is concerned.

Overtraining should not lead to knee pain because is not one supposed to be "sung"? For example I used to practiced 4 hours form straight down at speed that would put most people to sleep yet at the end of the session no pain. And I do this daily averaging 3 hours per day. In taiji we are supposed to train longer as we go on. So if pain is an issue this would be thrown out right away.

The whole issue about being internal is that the mind can perform certain wonders. Otherwise, what is the difference between training external and internal? Sure the "xing" will be there in the beginning but so should be the "yi". It makes no sense to train "xing" and then "yi" later - at least that's how we see it from taiji perspective because the yi should control the xing whereas most people have the notion of get the xing and the yi will come. Its like putting the cart before the horse and hoping it will move

Just my $0.05 worth from taiji perspective

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HaHaHa~ YY shot people also damn solid.... LoLx~

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Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

From what I understood
Xingyi's movements is rou, but it is very gang on the point of impact. Most of us are not totally rou and not gang enough at the right times.
Santi is for use. There are other postures for development.

This is what I got from somebody who is not a lineage disciple in xingyi, but "exchanged" with various taiwanese xingyi experts.

Just my 2-cents worth.

The type of sung/relaxation that Mushin extol to is what all internal martial art practitioner should aspire to achieve.

Based on what XiangQi described, his knees are still carrying his body weight; it has not gone down to his front soles. If he practice in the right manner, allowing his subconsciousness to take rein of his body awareness, he will drain this tension away eventually. If there is no major structural misalignment and all the other internal martial art principles are fulfilled, a bouyant energy will surface.

If Mushin is kind enough, plead him to feed you so you can know what kind of energy to work on. To me, Taiji jing, Pau Kau jin and etc cut no difference to me.

Hey, what do I know?

So nice.. the thread getting more response
tq everyone...

These few days while practising my san ti shi... do felt getting better... the leg not tat much tremble... As i don't really bend down very low, just felt the correct down is enough for me. I did for 15 min daily. eventhough it tiring but the feeling is very comfortable after the san ti shi.

Recently i bought a book about xinyi, it written by Di Guoyang, if not mistaken, i notice his san ti shi is wider steps, distance between 2 leg is wider and my sifu teached me is distance of 2 fist between 2 ankle.
how bout u guy's san ti shi?

By the way do u guys felt heat at the outer skin of ur arms and hand when doing san ti shi?
I think i felt tat, or maybe is just because i'm sweating ?

To Ah Gao - Sure, you can do up to a million breathings and I have no problem with it. Like I said, its just an advise to vivasg and whether he takes my words or not is up to me and I have no objection to it.

To LXGH2 - Well, like I said....The world is so big and there are so many places teaching and training XYQ. It is common that you find my theory weird and I find yours different. Anyway, rite/wrong is just base on individual's perspective, experience and from who individuals learn from. So...why so much bother about it? Just be happy with your practise, hope that vivasg has a happy training in XYQ and get on with your happy life rite?

To orangecandle - Your posting is funny. 1st, you said that a beginner is difficult to differentiate whether the XYQ they learnt is proper or not, then how would they be able to distinguish whether what they learn from is a good lineage or not? Does spending lots of $$ and go all the way to China to learn in hebei, shanxi, henan or watever means its proper lineage? Of cos you can read my posting but like I said, my posting is not for you but my reply to vivasg....so who care the hell of what you think? You said that I dun even have the basic manner?...I would not reply you in this way if you would have sound more polite in your 1st posting in this topic (same applies to LXGH2). Talk ppl, think about yourself 1st!

To mushin - Your points are valid. However, even though Taiji, XYQ or bagua are under "nei jia quan", the way in each exerting their force, combating strategies, techniques are however very much different. I believe you have already realised that. "Sung" is of cos necessary not just only in XYQ/taiji, even nanquan needs to be "sung" too or else the whole person will be like a piece of log .....For me, my instructor actually insisted me to practise abit of basic taiji before I really go into XYQ. This is to make sure that I managed to have an impression of "sung" cos many ppl are too obsessed by the impact of XYQ, thus causing many practitioners to become too stiff....However, the focus of "sung" in XYQ and taiji are also very much of a difference also. This is so far all I can say.

As for my knee, my injury that time really sucks and I got an mc on this for 6 months. What LXGH2 said maybe right on the training that I have done for myself may be base on my own problem and this is base on what I have learnt also...so I dunno how you guys are going to conduct the practise for yourself. Care to share? Practise more is definitely good and I have no question in it....and many things can be good but lots of things can be bad when too many good things are overdone. One of the purpose for practising wushu is to keep ourselves fit....so why hurt ourselves? Its up to how you define it and your freedom to do so.

After these few years of practising XYQ, the best thing that I feel when after practising XYQ is the sensational comfort of breathing and the energy flow that I feel within my body and I am very happy with it.

When you give an advice, it should have some background support or possible reasoning behind. In your case, you have a knee problem.

If some newbie, after reading this piece of information from you, actually follow you foot step and stop at 32 breathing, thus limiting him/herself from excel above a million breath, your are the culprit behind his/her growth.

End of the day... the 32 breathing count is a personal restriction on XiangQi and does not applies to anyone. So do not take it as an advice but rather a reading pleasure...

Am I right to sat that, XiangQi?



When 2 or more non-related individual from different training background of different XingYi/XinYi feels that your theory doesn't sound ...... , it will bother them very much. Cos this is a public forum read by different individual, where some are even "tall-hand"... I can't image if they will ROTFLOTT!




When someone torn a ligament before, regardless of what practice, human nature reflex to overcome the pain, he might re-align his body posture to reduce the pain.

Although adapting to another posture, by his own skeletal muscles and gotten use to it... (similarly to the "hunch-back" master doing tai'chi), this re-alignment might not necessary be out of the scope of the original principle.

But if his original principle was already out of scope by his personal perception and continue to train in that manner, yet achieving some progress, I can only say - GOOD FOR YOU!



Further on the 《形》&《意》 ("Xing" & "Yi"). No offense, but personally I cannot accept the reasoning of 《意》 - "Yi" - will come years later after perfecting 《形》 - "Xing".

In XingYi, we have 《五行》＆《十二形》
《五行》 - 斧、箭、锥、炮、梁 or 金、木、水、火、土
《十二形》 - 龍、虎、猴、馬、雞、燕、鷂、蛇、鼉、鳥台、鷹、熊

We do not mimic the form《形》 but rather understand the "intention" 《意》. Not knowing the intention, you cannot produce any form in relation to the art.

XingYi Quan acquire almost a linear forward movement and has the most powerful appearance comparing to Tai'chi and Pakua. This power is generated mainly by "pushing penetrative force", which can come many years later...

My S$1 "nuts knowledge about force" comment.

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Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

_________________
Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

Like I said b4...this is also based on one of the books that talks about the basic of XYQ that advises in this way also. As for what book is that, I dun exactly remember cos its about 7 - 8 yrs ago....

About the issue of "Yi"...it is meant for beginners cos they do not understand the purpose of even the basic movements and it is of cos that you guys cannot accept it cos you guys have been practising wushu for so long already. It is for "lian gong" purpose. Anyway, I rest my case to here. Do whatever you guys like....Vivasg, just enjoy practise XYQ...dun stress yourself too much.

yup, tq everyone
I'm trying to at least do san ti shi daily for 15 min each side
I discover many ppl have their own way of doing san ti shi, sometimes i even confused which one is the correct one. So I think at least for now, i'll follow the san ti shi I felt is comfortable to me and making sense to me one

recently i found a book I think should be not bad, too bad kinokuniya is out of stock, so i make an order to it. hope can get it soon

The title of the book is 'Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development ' by Dan Miller, Tim Cartmell

By the way if u guys have any good books about xinyi, can recommend me as well

Vivasg...

Dun be distracted on how others are doing their 'san ti'...you'll only get yourself in a mess if it matters to you too much. Like I keep on repeating...there are so many types of XYQ in the world today and it is common you find me weird and I find yours different. I think this is what you are experiencing now. Just follow what your instructor teaches you.

Is your comment based on your personal preference and understanding of XingYi through you years of practising plus this is how you instructor train you - 1st "Xing" then "Yi"?

From the statement, it doesn't sounds like you are hinting it to the newbie, more like IT IS such, or am I wrong in your hidden meaning...

Although you add in a [ ], It doesn't sound funny to me. As a newbie in XingYi Quan 12 years ago, I started off with "Yi". I didn't become a freak!

Com'on, don't leave it hanging in the air like that... Newbie are reading you post and you just stop short?


As a newbie, I cannot understand fully the intention (意) behind the form (形), hence I can only mimic a movement (not 形) without understanding.

It is important for the teacher to highlight the importance of intention (意) of the movement and therefore adapting it into a form (形) with reference to the art.

The intention (意) of any movement, which further develop into a form (形) won't come by itself. It has to be taught or impart.

Even in a general sports wushu, a form without intention, is nothing but dancing.




Could you elaborate "ppl have their own way of doing SanTi". Is it the posture (what you see) or the theory (what you heard)?

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Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

i thought my chinese is bad but ................

XiangQi - could it be that you misunderstand the import behind the name xingyi?

just coz the word xing comes first does not mean that one should practice xing first. it could be the founder had the same idea as you and realized that calling the art yixing would mean its a freak art so he called it xingyi instead

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I re-read the entire thread again...In both the quotes, XiangQi you used:

1.) XYQ that adviese in this way also
2.) XingYi Quan that talks about this

In both comment, you mentioned [ this ]. Does [ this ] refer to 32 breathing or not to overstress the knee while doing SanTi?

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Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

As I mentioned many ppl pratising their own san ti shi posture ( wat i see ) which i mean example is Song syle which have a broader steps of stance while Che style have smaller steps in stance - 2 fist distance between each ankle.

And the palm that putting at the tummy, some say putting in middle of the tummy some say slightly a side from the center of the tummy.

vivasg, we have the same problem in taiji - Who Is Right?

best way to answer at least from taiji viewpoint is to address it in terms of consistency for a range of factors including a) taiji principles b) taiji strategy c) taiji application

IMO unless one examine this issue this way, you may for example find that the method of fajing may be good and workable but is not realistic in application

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I think the problem of yi is everbody doesn't mean the same thing.

Certainly even a beginner concentrating more on xing has to have some kind of yi eg. you are striking in this direction; you are doing this for thiss purpose.

Later on, of course, you can have other kinds of yi: axe like, arrow like, striking far, striking down into...

And then later, you can have the expanding ball type, six harmonies yi, and the emptiness yi etc.

What I think xiangqi means is the more advanced types of yi... that the beginner will lose his shape by concentrating too much on say being a hammer. But if the beginner does not have some yi, the shape will not be correct anyway. And later the jing will just get lokced all over the place.

You are comparing New Zealand apple with Australia apple?

Understand the History:
2 lineage -
(1) It started all from 心意六合拳 (Xin Yi Liu He Quan) > 山西心意拳 (San Xi Xin Yi Quan) > 戴氏心意拳 (Dai Style Xin Yi Quan) and finally 河北形意拳 (Hebei XingYi Quan)

The famous 郭雲深 add in some northern style elements and thus became what we now commonly practise - 形意拳

Others add in some other elements, which further become 意拳 (Yi Quan) & 大成拳 (Da Cheng Quan).

(2) HeNan don't have XingYi but rather XinYi - 河南心意拳 (HeNan XinYi Quan). It was from 山西心意拳 (San Xi Xin Yi Quan) with added element from 查拳 (Cha Quan).

Once you get a clearly picture, then you can appreciate the different in Song & Che style. If I can manage to put in Hung Gar into XingYi, then it shall become Gao Shi XingYi Quan... LoLx~

The original principles PLUS whatever elements was added into it, determine the different family style.

Not like what XiangQi says... weird and different. The only thing different that I read from his posting is his reasoning...

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Daniel Kaw
SgWutan.com Wushu Administrator

一天不练手脚慢，两天不练丢一半，三天不练门外汉，四天不练瞪眼看。

Forum members,

U guys are damn super well-versed and well-read and very good. Really i m impressed with the theories and knowledge that u guys have on type of skills u discussed here, eg lineage, different version of Xing Yi, etc

For me i m still learning santi and 5 elements and breathing techniques and NO KNOWLEDGE of lineage/versions, etc. Guess i m a slow learner

Honestly i do not read or dwell into books or internet for reference. My coach never tells me much on lineage, which i asked only once. All he says is he learnt from "specialists" . Can't remember the name he quotes for coach did not emphasis much. For me, whenever i execute santi after some other wushu training, i only get "reminders" on how to do this or that for Xing Yi . It is like "you have know the routine, now let's go for basic and do-it-together type and he correct me as i do santi and 5 elements individually"

U guys "si bei ho and very kiang man !!!". I really applaused

Hi jkklim,

So mind share ur breathing techniques here?